i don't have the time right now to read all the comments here but you've struck a cord here with me. i was sucked in by the title. i'll come back tonight and read...
Dear Mkm, Many things come to mind reading your message, so please forgive me if I should leave something out. First of all, what is religous/non-religous education if not coding? We can argue about the semantics of certain words here, but I can't see any point in that. What matters is that you're brought up in a society with certain values, and if the society is rigid enough about it, you'll identify with those values whether you like it or not. And sometimes you are not even aware of the existence of anything else. So in this sence education is a very serious act of coding. Secondly, religon and tradation are strongly intertwined. They are so deeply rooted in each other, that it would be very naive to treat them as separate phenomena. See Judaism for example. Thirdly, your analogy did imply being posessed by someone other than yourself. You are, as you say a diamond. Who would want to protect a diamond that wasn't theirs? What do I care about someone else's diamond? The only diamond that matters to me is the one I own. To me that is the only precious one, simply because it is me who owns it and not someone else. I think you have to be careful when making such analogies, and you have to think them through very, very carefully. Also, if you're going to enter a discussion on statistics regarding rape cases, you really ought to present us with concrete figures, as in an intellectual discussion you can't just go around saying something is the case without being able to support your statement. I, on the other hand, can present you with a number of cases where Muslim girls tried to escape pre-arranged marriages, and their families had them murdered... And finally, if you don't mind my asking, I'd like to know why you don't have a name on this site.
Dear Mkm, Your English is very good.The problem was I was just speaking out against the very abusive Taliban men - especially how they abused the women (which really sickened me) - and that's were it ended. I felt you thought I was talking about the Islamic world beyond that group of horrible characters that ruled Afghanistan for a short time. As you see I have a fondness for Arabic/Muslim countries and if Bush doesn't make most of them totally hate the west I would like to visit the UAE in the next few years(Dubai and Abu Dhabi at the least-not just Dubai) as well as Syria and Yemen.I wish I had gone to Iraq in the 80's because its probably too late now.I obviously don't agree with Bush attacking Iraq but as I said before the average US citizen has no say so in anything in this country (contrary to what most people believe).Hopefully next November there will be better leadership in the US and we can have a more stable, peaceful world.In the mean time i'm glad you like my work. I have many many great shots From all the North African countries I mentioned before as well as Jordan that I will be posting in the near future.I hope you enjoy those along with more Paris shots.Anyway Shukran (Thanks for the correct spelling) and All the best,Mark
Thank you for proving my point, that's exactly it. Besides, don't lecture me on English. Oh, I also do master three other languages than my native one. That's how you spell "Shukran" just for the record! I won't argue further. I just wanted to correct all the misconceptions people seem to have about Muslim women. About Queen Rania, she is a Muslim woman just by title having a westernized mind. I was stating my own opinion, and didn't meant it to be offensive just explanatory. You do have a great portfolio, especially the pictures from Paris. I also think if this single photograph caused this debate then it's defiantly something! We don't usually see these everywhere. Obviously, it's a very effective one so congrats, well done! =) I hope you could visit Dubai one day, I am sure you'll enjoy it!
Mkm, I just saw this today because my computer's been broken and I was traveling before not able to fix it.I have one word of advice for you. Go back and study english some more (YALLAH,YALLAH) because you don't understand what you are reading.Your comments are RUDE, without merit, and don't have anything to do with why I made the picture (Women are supressed in many ways in many places - including the grand old USA and parts of Europe). NEVER did I once say anything against Muslim women any where on my page(or anywhere at all).I talked about the MALE Taliban dogs in Afghanistan (that's right my dear Mkm, they were DISGUSTING FILTH) that beat women in the streets and did not let them work or study but stay at home and do nothing, having to wear that hot and heavy Burka(in a very hot country, from head to toe - sickening). I don't think the Taliban represent the average Muslim or Islamic person AT ALL(they were ignorant power hungry murderers keeping the INSANE killer of ALL people - not just the Infidels (All people -Black, White,Asian, Muslim, Christian,Jewish, etc.),Bin Laden, as a "guest". Don't go telling me about your religion because I don't care(I don't want to hear about ANY religion).I know all about it(Islam). For years one of my best friends was an Egyptian guy and he told me plenty(HE was the anti-Islamic one).You don't know how many rapes there are in Islamic countries because they're not open societies(but who says they have to be? The whole world doesn't - or shouldn't - be the same).I've been to many Islamic/Muslim countries - (Morocco about 3 times, Tunisia, Egypt about 5 times, Jordan, Turkey - which is the most open - about 6 times,Indonesia about 3, Malaysia about 4....is that enough for you?)How dare you come on here and lecture me when you can't even understand english properly, don't know what you're talking about, and don't know camel droppings about me. I love the Arabic/Islamic countries I've been to (I wouldn't visit so often/many if I didn't, wouuld I) and just hope Bush hasn't ruined the relationship between Muslims and the West for good.The people are very nice,the food is great(even the beer is not bad), and there's great things to photograph around every corner. Oh, on top of that Arabic music is great, the best - we always have our drivers play their tapes on long drives like Amman to Petra or the Red Sea to Luxor.Where do you live? UAE? Well I've only been to Dubai airport so I don't know the UAE. Just don't make the BIG mistake of mixing the crazy Taliban men with normal,regular Arabic/ muslim society. So cool down, have a beer or 2(if you drink), and don't think every Westerner (my parents were born in Europe, I was born in the USA so I'm a Euromerican)is anti-Muslim. Don't think Bush or the American government speak for me AT ALL-they do what they want.They don't listen to us. (especially on the Israel/ Palestinian Situation - I was there a few years ago.I saw what was REALLY going on - not what CNN shows us) and neither do any European leaders speak for me. I speak for ME. Also, you're right, many Arabic/Turkish/Muslim/ etc woman are beautiful - look at the Princess of Jordan (I believe she's a Palestinian) - she's very beautiful.My girlfriend (wife, if you like) has a friend in Istanbul that's very pretty. Where did you get all these strange, untrue idea's about me? How about re-reading my comments and you can apologize if you feel you should (you don't have to but it would be nice - La?)You go and attack a guy who understands the Muslim world better than most non-Muslims, who knows why there's so much anger towards the West.That wasn't very wise but I'll let it go (I'm not a hot head-only for a few minutes)So lets have peace with each other and put on some Arabic music and turn it up loud....Take care, Mark PS. and I'm going to have to agree with most of what Paula said in her comments.Just because it isn't reported doesn't mean it doesn't happen. But we have our own propaganda here also that people believe so it's everyhere(in different degrees). You say Toma toe ,I say Tomay toe, alright? Let's have some peace, God willing. Sucrone-thank you (did I spell that right?)about the nice comment about my pictures.
First, from my place of the world; our society is multicultural, with a very high percentage of foreigners escaping from their native countries for a better job and a higher pay. Anyway, so this is what I referred to as "perverted mind". Our own men haven't reached that measure yet. We have our religion to guide us away from every sin. Next, my analogy didn't indicate a single thing about being owned by men. I believe we are like diamonds, and I created this analogy just to make it easier to understand, it was never "coded" as you assume again. We are owned by our own God. We are souls, and no soul deserves to be owned by another. Every living and nonliving thing on earth is owned by his Almighty. That is one of our believes, and what you "assumed" again totally contradicts with that. This is only evidence to "acting out of ignorance" again! If you argue there are other parts of the world, where you have seen and worked with who does what you claim. Then I assure you, it is not out of their religious believes, it is from their traditions. The Muslim nation is huge, with Muslims all over the world from every culture. I don't think Christians all over the world act the exact same way, do they? Some Christians are very religious, some are not, and some wouldn't abandon their traditions even if they are wrong at some point, just because it was something their ancestors believed in. There are times when you need to differentiate between things which are influenced by culture or tradition, and things that are considered as pillars of a certain religion. Since Islam is a global religion, it comes to eliminate the practices which contradict with human nature, but protect, respect and preserve each region's culture. Keep an open mind, and think about this before you rush in with assumptions over and over again!
Ah, and I've just re-read your argument. The fact that you talk about women as precious posessions (diamonds), owned by men, just proves our point. However, this attitude seems to be so deeply coded in you that you can't distance yourself from the subject, and take a look at what you're actually saying. This is not a judgement, just an observation.
Excuse me for saying this, but what does the fact that you have to live behind veils to be protected from, as you say, "every perveted mind" say about your culture? I happen to have worked for a big human rights organization in a campaing for women, and I can assure you that there is considerable factual data of how in some Muslim countries women are kept as slaves, deprived of their human dignity. This is not to say it doesn't happen anywhere else. Sadly it does. But to say that it's not the case, is a blatant manifastation of one's ignorance.
The photo is fine by itself, yet I need to say the idea and what inspired it is really insulting. You think Muslim societies treat their women like this? Lock them up, and eliminate their rights and freedom? Is that what you think? Well, pardon me, but I have to say loudly and clearly "In Islam Women are granted all their rights, and Islam respect women more than any religion that exist on earth" You may wonder how, if Islam requires wearing a veil or gender segregation. Think of this, YES we do wear a veil, yet in our countries the amount of rapes are pretty low in comparison with the most liberate country in the world. Why? Simply because we are protected from every retarded eye and every perverted mind; we are far more precious, just like diamonds. Would you rather keep your million-dollar worth diamond out and open for thieves to steal? Would you immediately protect it in your "coded" safe box? This is the exact case, we are happy with what our religion grant us. We do not need artists like you, to come and portray false assumptions about our societies. The photograph is wonderful, the idea is very original. However, the way you put it how "Taliban" and Muslim women inspired you is totally offending. Any knowledgeable artist will know better than presenting art which is inspired by ignorance!
Totally cool and surreal Mark heeehee and great reading- you're a very interesting person and I'm glad we bumped into each other in UF... your comments are priceless! Hugs Cherie p.s. I'm half English et ą moitič francaise... which might account for my Oxford English (born in London but lived 10 years in Paris, 2 years Arabia, 1 year Greece (oops that makes already 13, better leave the years out and be more subtle), now in Bavaria - blah di blah di blah heehee p.s. Wish I could have seen Gordon's comments, I would have slashed his PC chair with my magical teletransporter intergalactical laser beams!
Thanks for the compliment Lisa(Glad you like it). Coming from you it means something being one of the true artists on "USEFILM". I think Lisa's said it all in her usual short but crystal clear and eloquent style - case closed.
forgot to add...............next time will u both do this naked and rolling in mud??
FORGOT TO ADD.............i like the pic its weird i especially like how they all look dead.................coa ll the mean men ahve taken away their personalities!"!
now now ladies...........for centuries men have supressed women and degraded them, moulded them in to a weak speices.taken our dignity and honour........anything women have men take.........take take take.........and now, i come here (great enternaiment btw, my lens is bigger than yours and all that!)and your two grown men have taken our ownership on 'how to bitch'...bah, now we have nothing!! so, this could go on and on and on, heres the deal..............the first one to reply with 'fuck you assehole'(not directed at me of course) is the overall winner!
Dear Gordon, Jet-set? (is that an early or late 70's term?)... ya,VERY jet-set.Airports are really happening these days - All the Security, putting your film through cranked up X-ray machines, being asked a million questions...VERY happening and GROOVY! Sorry Gordon,can't make your fantasy real. We take trains around Europe.Coke Mule? hmm,that's starting to get a bit...dancing on the edge of slander maybe?(Coke mule implies that I'm into transporting cocaine, right?) Not to burst your fantasy bubble again so soon but I never tried it.Have seen plenty of kids selling the leaves in Cusco,Peru but sorry,I like a cup of nice French coffee myself)Anyway, all lightness aside I'd have to say NOT A GOOD MOVE Gordon, went down to the business center to make some paper copies of that one-never know, some of these things come in handy later on.What was the other silly stuff you mentioned? Go to Afghanistan...for what, to get shot? There's a war going on Gordon - you get CNN?I do "Travel Photography"(and some Fashion on the side) I'm not a "Photo Journalist" - there's a big distinction, try and pick up on it.Same with National Geogrphic(that's not exactly what's properly called "Travel Photography"if you call a STOCK AGENCY and asked them), you're comparing Oranges, Lemons, and Limes - all in the citrus family but that's were it ends.Look, I can't keep educating you about photography 101 (take a class at your local high school).A group of us are going out to dinner around 10 -ish (it's Spain) and I'd rather talk to(and look at) Sonia (the model)then waste time on this "nothingness".Don't like my work? I don't want to be rude(that's your part) but I could care less (I like it and the people who pay me seem to like it so what does your opinion matter to me? Nada - go find some work you like. As you said, I have no talent so why are you wasting your time? Jealousy can be such a cruel mistress, EH? Catch you in "Jet-set" land, Marcos
Dear Gordon,You're absolutely right. Obviously (or at least in my opinion) you don't agree with the politics of the photo more than the photo itself. I too miss the news videos of the Taliban beating the cr*p out of women because an inch of their ankle is exposed - I hear ya brother! Just for your information - I haven't yet mastered my camera's light meter(and what's Auto-Focus?). When you shoot Studio Pro-Flash work you must meter with a hand held meter that reads the exposures of the super - sonically fast flash pop (Sekonic-which I use or Minolta which are the 2 most popular)You will learn all this as you begin your photographic journey.One thing you will learn about "USEFILM" is we all try to be polite and civil with each other.When you finally post some of your work (I noticed that as of yet you have nothing to show us on your page but that's O.K.. I was in the same situation when I started) you will find that the highly talented Photographers on the great "USEFILM" site almost always practice civilized and sofisticated behaviour.One last thing,sorry but I'm not familiar with 8th grade art books(8th Grade was a long time back for me). I don't have children and I spend most of my time traveling the world with my girlfriend/assistant (Europe,North Africa,Asia, and South America) shooting travel shots for assignment and stock or staying in Paris in my apartment working on a future travel book and hanging out with my French friends so I'm not very in touch with American pop art but I DO love Pearl Jam and U2(are they kind of like the books you mentioned?).Check out my shot the "American Way". I'm sure that one will move you.Thanks for stopping by - you put my view count over 100 and that's not bad with all the thousands and thousands of photographers on this site.Hope to hear more from you.Take Care,Mark(greetings from Barcelona (that's in Spain)where I'm doing a Photo Fashion shoot with 5'10''Sonia - a beautiful Spanish model.She says ,"Hola Gordon - Como estas?"(her photo's will be up (posted) in a couple months - keep an eye out-merry xmas)
Dear Jim, Sorry about the lag time.I've been flying between Paris/D.C./NYC/and back to Paris all in about a week so my brain's scrambled(on top of that I'm trying to get to Cyprus by next week so that won't help my body clock either).To answer your "food-for-thought" question ya, sure I think women play a BIG part in their own objectification(we're all trying to get something by what society tells us is the way to do it).Same as men spending hours a day lifting barbells (or what have you)thinking it's gonna help them...you know what I'm getting at, faster or more often.Maybe it will with a certain type of woman (a type I'm not interested in).In my opinion Society puts a lot of pressure on everybody and if you want to stay "real" you gotta fight it.Being involved, in the past,to a degree in the fashion industry I've seen some really nutty stuff models do to stay in line with society's/the fashion industry ideals-massively underweight (and the large amount of money one can earn very quickly in the modeling industry-usually at a very high physical and phycological price) This shot was basically inspired by the(late,not so great) Taliban "rulers/leaders" in Afghanistan and some kind of abortion issue the US govn. had on it's plate at about the same time.I'm not a big fan of abortion(I think prevention is the way to go)but I'm less of a fan of (as Don Henley put it)-"these tired old men we elected kings" (I'll apply it towards congress in general)telling women what they should do with their own bodies.If Abortion is outlawed it's just going to go underground and move to Mexico with a lot more infections and worse so the best thing is to leave it as is (in my opinion)-Any alternative will just be worse (except better education about prevention).There you have it.I explained the shot a lot more than I really wanted to but I think they were important topics/problems.If you don't agree I understand(everybody has a right to their own opinion).All the best, Mark
Intelligent idea for a perceptive social comment. Your base idea disparages the use of women in this way. But do you feel that there really could be any other way. And what about women themselves, do they play any part in their own objectification? Great photo, by the way.
Oh, mon Ami. I love the bluish stuff. and your vision is so clear. great message, my Mark. did you try ACDsee.com for the software for posting. Kisses and Love, your faithfull friend, Biliana
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