Roger Williams
(K=86139) - Comment Date 3/25/2006
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Jonathan, many people who take digital images haven't come into the hobby via a knowledge of cameras, film, apertures, shutter speeds, dark rooms, development etc., etc. They've leaped over all that and taken advantage of the latest all-automatic cameras that let them be creative without a long apprenticeship. Good for them! But as they don't know what "mainstream" is, how could they know what "alternative" is? However, I do agree with you that the photos being submitted are mostly quite inappropriate. But then, when you look at the entries for most of the projects, they too are often inappropriate. Perhaps a detailed explanation on the first page of the project photos would help? Or a pop-up reminder when you select ANY project? SOMETHING needs to be done but it's hard to think what... Just removing photos is only going to offend people who don't understand that they've done anything inappropriate.
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Jonathan Boarini
(K=1895) - Comment Date 3/25/2006
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You're right, and it's okay and understandable for many not to know. But that's why the site can help them learn. After all, that is the stated purpose of the site. Maybe there can be an explanation detailing what "Alternative Process" really means. If a photo doesn't fit the category, I still think it should be removed, even if the author gets "offended", just the same way a thread is removed from a forum if it's off topic.
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Gayle's Eclectic Photos
(K=91109) - Comment Date 3/25/2006
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hi,this is where i have always read the details of the categories...
http://www.usefilm.com/categories.php
AND it clearly states it is not for digital...
regards,gayle
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Jeroen Wenting
(K=25317) - Comment Date 3/25/2006
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when we catch an image posted in the wrong category it's edited to reflect the correct category, but we can't go through every image individually constantly.
There's only 24 hours in the day and none of the moderators and editors are doing this fulltime, most of us only spend an hour or two a day on average.
So things will slip by us inevitably.
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Matej Maceas
(K=24381) - Comment Date 3/25/2006
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I hereby volunteer to moderate the alt process category.
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Saeed Al Shamsi
(K=47735) - Comment Date 3/25/2006
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Although an amateur photographer without deep knowledge, I doubt has the ability to distinguish the differences or even knows what alternative process is.
Am not sure if one can tell, platinum prints once it scanned and became in form of a digital image (B&W).
Alternative Process prints are photo-chemically (or photo-electronically) captured images transferred onto a permanent surface with methods which have fallen out of favor or which may have never been accepted in mainstream photography. The ranks of Alternative Process photographers, are filled with history buffs, purists, technical enthusiasts, innovators and others who delight in the one-of-a-kind, hand-made prints which emphatically announce they were not spawned at the One-Hour Photo Counter. They look and feel different from ordinary photographic prints and are generally found in art galleries and museum exhibits.
Other family process and share the same metallic rational as platinum and palladium, like light sensitive salts of iron in combination with gold, silver, mercury, manganese and copper. Or more difficult than metallic, is called special alternative processes or some times known as control processes. And much more methods.
Some mention should be made of the computer-assisted print. The computer and its partner, the electronic camera, have not replaced film-originated pictures and are limited in their capacity to produce fine art images. (For one thing, computer prints are absolutely flat and this makes for a rather boring surface.) Despite this, the computer's role in Alternative Processes is becoming very important. Set aside what you may know about the weird distortions and other special effects computer-mediated images often possess. Instead, consider how the computer, once a film image is scanned into it, can help the print maker get a handle on tonality, contrast and sizing for generating the contact negative (or positive) from which a fine Alternative Process print can then be made. Each of these tasks is perfectly feasible, but vastly more tedious, in the traditional darkroom with enlarger, trays of chemicals and safe lights. Therefore, the computer is primarily a wonderful tool for Alternative Process photography rather than a means of producing final prints.
It is a matter of time when no more camera and film available, then am sure all will do their alternative process through editing tools within the most advanced instrument in history a CUMPUTOR.
Saeed
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Jonathan Boarini
(K=1895) - Comment Date 3/25/2006
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Thanks for the discussion guys, it's very interesting to hear your points of view. I understand completely that moderators don't have time to monitor things full time. As for Saeed's response, I disagree: Alternative Processes entirely excludes the use of a computer. Whether you later digitize something (like a pinhole image) is another thing entirely. It's a techinicality. Well thanks for the exchange of ideas guys!
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Helen Bach
(K=2331) - Comment Date 3/25/2006
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I read Saeed's post to refer to alternative process prints made from digitally-printed negs. That appears to be quite acceptable to a lot of practitioners of alternative printing processes. It's all a matter of personal opinion. For example, I wouldn't call pinhole photography an alternative process.
Best, Helen
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Roger Williams
(K=86139) - Comment Date 3/25/2006
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I think you are a natural choice for this role, Matej. Perhaps you would let me know if they take you up on this. I understand that the ability for volunteers to moderate is awaiting an upgrade to the software that Phil has been working on since I volunteered to moderate the Panorama area of the forums. It would be nice if guidelines for moderation could be made available, too. By the way, Matej, I would include pin-hole cameras but I see Helen wouldn't. What do you think? I suppose one day film will be an "alternative process" [sigh].
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Saeed Al Shamsi
(K=47735) - Comment Date 3/26/2006
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Actually UF is a quite useful site for many members including professionals as a learning site.
Putting more pressure and complicating the situation wont be in favor of those whom in need for learning and getting experience in photography field.
Not only Alternative process is one with doubt but that goes with many projects in UF, as for example “Pattern in Nature “ if you look as an experience carefully many of images been uploads there for sure not related to “Nature in Pattern” not only that but many of them got award too.
Saying that it does not mean clearing the wrong habit is not that good, indeed it is the best way for photography education.
Just for information ALTERNATIVE PROCESS is now part of computer processing work in many Universities, photography faculty and it is slowly growing to replace the old method of dark-hand made room, sorry guys this is the reality.
Saeed
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Matej Maceas
(K=24381) - Comment Date 3/26/2006
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Roger, for me an alternative process is determined mainly by how you print the photo, i.e. like Helen (although maybe she has different reasons) I would not include photos in this category just because the camera they were taken with does not have a lens. It could also make an interesting discussion whether lith prints should be considered an alternative process. But I'm afraid such points are too academical given the current state of the Alternative Process category here... First it needs to be cleaned up of images that obviously aren't alt process, and then it will be possible to discuss those that are somewhere on the borderline.
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Jeroen Wenting
(K=25317) - Comment Date 3/26/2006
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Photoshop trickery is NOT an alternative process.
In fact, extreme digital manipulation seems (sadly) to ever more become the norm rather than the exception.
Call me a purist, but if I need to do more to a scanned slide than correct some scanner errors and maybe crop a bit I throw it out.
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Jonathan Boarini
(K=1895) - Comment Date 3/26/2006
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Okay, I found something that can be of learning for all of us. Altnernative processes are defined as "any photographic process that does not use the methods and technology of current silver -gelatin materials." (Source http://duke.usask.ca/~holtsg/photo/faq.html). Of course, this excludes digital, regardless of how useful the computer is. Some examples are:
* Calotype
* Albumen Print
* Cyanotype
* Kallitype
* Platinum and Palladium Print
* Gum Bichromate Print
* Gumoil
* Carbon Print
* UltraStable
* Carbro Print
* Bromoil Print
* Polaroid Transfer
* Safe Dichromate Use
Pretty interesting, I didn't know there were so many ways of capturing or creating images that aren't the usual "film vs. dgital" debate. I hope that this settles it.
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Matej Maceas
(K=24381) - Comment Date 3/26/2006
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A few more are listed here
http://www.alternativephotography.com/process.html
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Helen Bach
(K=2331) - Comment Date 3/26/2006
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Digital negatives are covered by alternativephotography.com. Because so many alternative processes require contact printing, digital negatives have increased the accessibility of these alternative processes. The digital negatives may not be 'alternative' in themselves, but they enable true alternative prints to be made.
Best,
Helen
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Roger Williams
(K=86139) - Comment Date 3/27/2006
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Glad to find myself agreeing with you, Helen, rather than with Jeroen. If the PhotoShop work is designed to produce a negative appropriate for some alternative process, then I would say the result falls firmly within the range of "alternative process." I would have to agree with Jeroen that people who use PhotoShop to give a different "look" to the result (e.g., by adding "grain" to roughen up those over-smooth digital B&W images or to imitate the toning of selenium or palladium prints) have no business in the alternative process project.
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Roger Williams
(K=86139) - Comment Date 3/29/2006
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Matej, did you get a reply to your offer to moderate the "alternative process" area? I got a "yes" reply to my offer to moderate the Panorama forum, but am still awaiting access to moderator functions. As there is zero activity in the forum, though, there's obviously no urgency!
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Matej Maceas
(K=24381) - Comment Date 3/29/2006
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No, but I can imagine this is a low-priority task anyway.
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